I suggest the effect of camomile is:
a) likely to be largely placebo – if it cannot be recreated under lab conditions
b) not useful to those in severe pain

The Lancet did a review of over 100 homeopathic trials and concluded that it had no benefit above a placebo. As I understand, acupuncture is one of the few “alternative medicines” with results significantly above and beyond that of a placebo.

I doubt you’ll find a single person involved with Speaking of Research who would disagree with this, such measures would without doubt contribute to a healthier society (though human milk banks might be difficult to establish) but the fact is that even with such measures there will still be a necessity for medical intervention in many cases.

Any medical intervention carries risks of adverse effects, and the more serious the intervention the greater the risk of adverse effects usually is. Many very useful drugs have adverse effects that are an unavoidable, though usually managable, consequence of their mode of action. I don’t doubt that in some cases drugs are sometimes prescribed without enough care to avoid interactions etc. and some doctors are too willing to prescribe drugs such as antibiotics and statins when they are not necessary with all the attendent problems this overprescription cause, but this is an argument against the misuse of medicines, not against the medicines themselves. Nevertheless thanks to medical advances many people now survive injuries and diseases that would in years gone by have killed them.

I don’t share your enthusiasm for alternative medicine, especially homeopathy, the one woo to rule them all, and as for chiropractic while it does appear to be of benefit for some types of back pain all I can really say is “Simon Singh”. I certainly recognize the power of the placebo effect, and the benefits to a parients well being of a pleasant atmosphere and a sympathetic medic. IMHO the NHS could learn a lot by asking itself a lot more often why people turn to alternative medicine when the evidence for benefits from it is so weak.

As to the necessity of animal research in developing new medical treatments I have studied enough to be convinced that it plays an indispensible role, and will do for some years to come. Certainly the animal research being done now in areas such as neuroscience, stem cells, tissue engineering and gene therapy, and nanotechnology is crucial to progress in these very exciting areas, just as it was to transplants and antibiotic research when these were at the leading edge of medical research.

As for the Suffragettes, when they torched Lloyd George’s house they torched the house of somebody who supported women’s sufferage. The more militant attacks of the suffragettes on the public at large (e.g. mail bunring) and arson attacks did their cause no favours, as opposed to their earlier efforts when they set out to get arrested. My objection is not to breaking the law in protest but to attacks that target individuals and their families, especially those carried out by people who operate by night. Regarding the WSPU I think their over-enthusiastic attitude to the first world war (including pinning white feathers to concientious objectors) says something about the mentality of some of their more militant members.

“At the end of the day you are living, feeling sentient beings who have families and can suffer which is perhaps why no-one has really harmed you. ”

I suspect a lot of viictims of AR campaigns would disagree with you on that.

“I understand that in the UK a police officer was saved by penicillin in an experimental attempt to save his life and that although it was tested on non human animals that we would have still discovered it without animal testing.”

No, that police officer died, the penicillin was working but ran out before he could be fully cured. This was because the early forms of penicillin broke down very quickly in the body, something Fleming had noted soon after it’s discovery and which discouraged him from further work on it since he could not produce it in the large amounts required. The only reason that there was enough penicillin to even think of trying to save him was due to the work of Florey, Chain and Heatley who produced enough penicillin to be able to test wheather it could protect mice from infection and with the success of those studies went on to develop methods to produce sufficient quantities to start testing it on people. Without the successful mouse studies it is very unlikely that Penicillin would ever have been produced in sufficient quantities to be assessed in human trials.

I really don’t care whether or not you use products that were tested on animals is between you and your conscience, I just find it rather ironic that your life was saved by the discoveries of the “vivisectors” Richard Lewisohn and Karl Landsteiner. My greatest concern is that your activities may deprive patients of medical advances that are yet to be made or are currently under development.

As to animal tests that arn’t part of medical research, I’ve stated before that I’m against routine animal testing of cosmetics, though I do appreciate that some testing of industrial, agricultural or household chemicals is necessary as humans (and other animals) are exposed to these (and often not by choice). I can honestly say that I never heard of animal testing of “essential oils” though having done a little reading I can understand why some regulators are concerned at their toxicity, I think I’ll leave them to you!

My answer is not to take us back to some animal rights year zero but to stop all non consensual research on all live subjects now with the exception to use an experimental drug or technique in an emergency.

What I find interesting is that vivisectors always argue that animal rights activists should never take medication regardless of the fact that many drugs ahve been in circulation for decades or even decades in the case of ergot and many opiates. Is it not just as hypocritical to use a mobile phone or drive a car as many animal tests have been carried out by mobile phone manufacturers and car manufacturers? Are you all embarrassed by the fact that many tests on animals are not for “life saving” research? I do not ask that animals are tortured in my name but yes I will drink tap water and use essential oils, these things are not yours to give, I owe you lot nothing.

As for the mediaction, well morphine has been around for ages, I am more comfortable with that than ANY washing powder. Ditto paracetomol. Hartmans.IVI.SO WHAT. Yes I had anaesthetics and a blood transfusion but as I have just said I do believe that we would have had these things without testing on animals. Antibiotics for the MRSA..why is there MRSA let us think ….overprescibing, billions of farm animals forcefed antibiotics with slurry entering the water supply, lack of staff in our hospitals. Antibiotics are a miracle drug again I understand that in the UK a police officer was saved by penicillin in an experimental attempt to save his life and that although it was tested on non human animals that we would have still discovered it without animal testing.

I would like to see drugs labeled properly. When, where, how and why was this tested on animals and what is in it. Maybe if the police did not beat the living snot out of us we would not have to go to hospital. To pretend that there would be no drugs, no emergency treatment, no skilled staff, no hospital beds, no pain relief without animal testing is fraud of the highest degree.

I wonder Jack how pure you are. I presume that you are opposed to child slave labour are you sure that you have nothing in your house which is from a factory which abuses children?

I am certainly not an explosives expert but if we were proper terrorists there would be kidnaps, shootings, torture etc, none of which I would want any part of. Homes being torched? As long as no-one is at home I would not condemn it although I would not do such a thing or advocate such a thing. Really though 35 years on the ALF/ARM have not killed I do not think that it is luck, I think that it a respect for life. At the end of the day you are living, feeling sentient beings who have families and can suffer which is perhaps why no-one has really harmed you. It is called compassion.

As they say one man’s terrorist is anothers freedom fighter. the ANC and the French Resistance were called terrorists by their detractors. Were they? If they had lost they would defineately be called terrorists. By your definition the Suffragettes who used arson (they torched the Home Secretary’s house) and “intimidation” were also terrorists. I think that terrorism is a word used by those who do not like the actions of another. Personally I am not sure what constitutes “terrorism” but I think that it involves more violence i.e holding down an innocent victim and experimenting on them.

ALF may not have hurt anyone physically yet, but that’s pure luck. It’s not like you lot are master explosives experts. The fact that none have killed anyone is pure luck. I’m not sure what part of burning peoples homes, threatening them with physical abuse and harassing them you don’t see as terrorism? I’d certainly wonder what your definition of terrorism might be.

When we are “violent” everyone is supposed to listen to your whining. Just admit it, you are violent to your victims and you extend this outside the labs as well. One thing I will say for Brian Cass is that he did not exagerate his injuries back in Feb 2001, when asked by a reporter about whether he thought he was going to die he was almost frosty in his response to this hysterical interpretation of what was a fairly minor head wound. Brian Cass and I do not exactly like one another but he certainly appears to cope better with what happened better than the rest of you. For the record I do not approve of what I have heard about this case, SHAC condemned the attack on the basis of what was known about the circumstances. Brian Cass was back at work the next day, it took me 9 months and believe you me the police officer concerned meant to hurt me which is why he was arrested and his house raided and witnesses threatened with death.

Yes I have been heavily involved in SHACbut I have not physically harmed anyone, nor have I threatened to do so. I would not tolerate racist, homophobic, religious or sexist abuse on a demo or elsewhere of any of you.

As for me tasting the fruits of the NHS, so what? In fact I am a midwife so work for the NHS and dispense drugs. Furthermore in my daily life I use products which were at some stage tested on non-human animals e.g aromatherapy oils, tap water, non organic food. I am campaigning for a compassionate world which does not abuse non humans. Animal abuse is interwoven within our culture, the job of the animal rights movement is not disintangling the wreckage to assume some sort of pure existance, it is to stop animal abuse. Morphine for example is an ancient drug you do not have a patent on it, nor can any of you decree who can be admitted to hospital.

Many of us in the UK and the US are benificiaries of slavery, should we therefore tear up roads built by slaves ? The damage alas, is done. Likewise the Nazis experimented on Russian prisoners in horrific hypothermia experiments. Personally I would use what had been learnt to good purpose whilst condemning the barbarous method which is what has been done with lives saved. Avoiding animal tested products is impossible without reverting to living in a cave which I am sure you would like us all to do but tough luck, we do our best to be consistant by being vegan as far as is practicable. Climate change campaigners can not completely avoid omitting carbon, does that make them all hypocrites as well? Should an environmentalist refuse to get in an ambulance because it is run by deisel?

Anyway clearly you want to be the victims of the big bad ALF. Truth is even the most militant of us respects your lives so much that as yet not one of you has been seriously harmed, after all you are animals too. If the best you can come up with is Brian’s head injury and as you all know scalp injuries look ar more dramatic than they actually are, then really we must be a real bunch of softies. It is good to discuss these matters though eh?

Wow, who says God doesn’t have a sense of humor? I mean how ironic is it that you’re in the hospital, perfectly willing to take advantage of medical treatment developed through animal testing, such as the treatment of MRSA , resulting from injuries sustained while protesting animal research? Now that’s classic! I guess it’s OK for you to take advantage of the cures but no one else can? I’m not sure how that works, but it’s incredibly funny nonetheless. I also assume you recieved stitches for your laceration and perhaps another antibiotic for the Pseudomonas?

You’ve made my day Lynn! Here I was feeling a little down because it’s winter here in the States. It’s getting cold and dark, and there are no leaves on the trees. But along you come and give me a good laugh. I thank you!

Jack