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	<title>Comments for Speaking of Research</title>
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	<link>http://speakingofresearch.com</link>
	<description>Improving understanding about Animal Research / Animal Testing</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 19:31:03 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Animal Research in the Public Eye by Jack</title>
		<link>http://speakingofresearch.com/2012/05/22/animal-research-in-the-public-eye/#comment-5119</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 19:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://speakingofresearch.com/?p=3676#comment-5119</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I live in a city where they do horrible experiments on primates and let me tell you how difficult it has been for citizens and animal rights groups to try to get information from the university.  It is literally like pulling teeth.  It is next to impossible to get any of the researchers to publicly talk about their experiments unless of course it is researchers who do very non invasive observational studies with primates.  Most of the information that we receive is often redacted.  And the university here even shredded the 600+ videotapes of primate experiments (they said they were lost in a fire) before they would ever show them to the public.  

If you go to the primate center here on campus and ask for a tour of the center, they will say, &quot;just a minute&quot; and then call the police on you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live in a city where they do horrible experiments on primates and let me tell you how difficult it has been for citizens and animal rights groups to try to get information from the university.  It is literally like pulling teeth.  It is next to impossible to get any of the researchers to publicly talk about their experiments unless of course it is researchers who do very non invasive observational studies with primates.  Most of the information that we receive is often redacted.  And the university here even shredded the 600+ videotapes of primate experiments (they said they were lost in a fire) before they would ever show them to the public.  </p>
<p>If you go to the primate center here on campus and ask for a tour of the center, they will say, &#8220;just a minute&#8221; and then call the police on you.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Being Humane by darioringach</title>
		<link>http://speakingofresearch.com/2012/01/02/being-humane/#comment-5117</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[darioringach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 17:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://speakingofresearch.com/?p=3057#comment-5117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You could start by looking at global warming and how it is shaping the environment and leading some species to extinction. My statement is one that recognizes our responsibility towards the environment and all living beings that depend on it.  Animals cannot do anything to control the situation. That&#039;s not speciesism-- it is a simple fact.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You could start by looking at global warming and how it is shaping the environment and leading some species to extinction. My statement is one that recognizes our responsibility towards the environment and all living beings that depend on it.  Animals cannot do anything to control the situation. That&#8217;s not speciesism&#8211; it is a simple fact.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Being Humane by Walt Hutchens</title>
		<link>http://speakingofresearch.com/2012/01/02/being-humane/#comment-5116</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walt Hutchens]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 07:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://speakingofresearch.com/?p=3057#comment-5116</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Yes, but we are the participants that will decide how the Earth will look in a a thousand years…&quot;

THAT is speciesism.   Furthermore, it may not be true; there are all sorts of ways it could prove wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Yes, but we are the participants that will decide how the Earth will look in a a thousand years…&#8221;</p>
<p>THAT is speciesism.   Furthermore, it may not be true; there are all sorts of ways it could prove wrong.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Animal Research in the Public Eye by scott storm</title>
		<link>http://speakingofresearch.com/2012/05/22/animal-research-in-the-public-eye/#comment-5113</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[scott storm]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 03:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://speakingofresearch.com/?p=3676#comment-5113</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All invasive animal experiments at research labs involve treating the subject animals cruelly, which is enough reason to consider any and all of it immoral. and thus not &quot;essential&quot; in any sense of the word.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All invasive animal experiments at research labs involve treating the subject animals cruelly, which is enough reason to consider any and all of it immoral. and thus not &#8220;essential&#8221; in any sense of the word.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What GM mice can tell us about pancreatic cancer (and medical charities) by Animal Research in the Public Eye &#124; Speaking of Research</title>
		<link>http://speakingofresearch.com/2012/05/01/what-gm-mice-can-tell-us-about-pancreatic-cancer-and-medical-charities/#comment-5105</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Animal Research in the Public Eye &#124; Speaking of Research]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 12:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://speakingofresearch.com/?p=3530#comment-5105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Websites of research institutions, scientists, scientific societies, government agencies, advocacy organizations, educational organizations, laboratory animal research associations, and medical charities. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Websites of research institutions, scientists, scientific societies, government agencies, advocacy organizations, educational organizations, laboratory animal research associations, and medical charities. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on A paralysed man touches his girlfriend’s hand…thanks to animal research. by Not Difficult To Grasp &#124; Speaking of Research</title>
		<link>http://speakingofresearch.com/2011/10/13/a-paralysed-man-touches-his-girlfriend%e2%80%99s-hand%e2%80%a6thanks-to-animal-research/#comment-5091</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Not Difficult To Grasp &#124; Speaking of Research]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 10:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://speakingofresearch.com/?p=2784#comment-5091</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] how Dr. Schwartz&#8217;s team had used a different technology known as electrocorticography to enable a paralysed man to manipulate a robotic arm, while Dr. Chet Moritz and colleagues at Wachington National Primate Research Centre, have coupled [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] how Dr. Schwartz&#8217;s team had used a different technology known as electrocorticography to enable a paralysed man to manipulate a robotic arm, while Dr. Chet Moritz and colleagues at Wachington National Primate Research Centre, have coupled [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Violence vs Non-Violence? The AR Debate! by JC</title>
		<link>http://speakingofresearch.com/2009/09/02/violence-vs-non-violence-the-ar-debate/#comment-5087</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 23:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://speakingofresearch.com/?p=1056#comment-5087</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark, the Nazi&#039;s experiment on humans were universally condemned by the scientific community, to the extent that the results of that research were destroyed and never published. The idea behind that was that the means by which those data were acquired was so repulsive that it could not justify them ever being used.
Now, it you AR activists think that animal research is equally morally repulsive, you should renounce any benefits that derive from animal research. You should sign a pledge stating that you will not use any medication or medical procedure that has been developed using animal research, even if you risk losing your life as the result. Would you sign such a pledge, Mark?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, the Nazi&#8217;s experiment on humans were universally condemned by the scientific community, to the extent that the results of that research were destroyed and never published. The idea behind that was that the means by which those data were acquired was so repulsive that it could not justify them ever being used.<br />
Now, it you AR activists think that animal research is equally morally repulsive, you should renounce any benefits that derive from animal research. You should sign a pledge stating that you will not use any medication or medical procedure that has been developed using animal research, even if you risk losing your life as the result. Would you sign such a pledge, Mark?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Of what use? by KayLa Synan</title>
		<link>http://speakingofresearch.com/2012/03/23/of-what-use/#comment-5076</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KayLa Synan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 14:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://speakingofresearch.com/?p=3390#comment-5076</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This was no help]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was no help</p>
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		<title>Comment on Frans de Waal&#8217;s Ethical Arguments Need Clarification by Paul</title>
		<link>http://speakingofresearch.com/2012/05/12/frans-de-waals-ethical-arguments-need-clarification/#comment-5074</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 10:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://speakingofresearch.com/?p=3632#comment-5074</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good points David about research involving people who cannot give informed consent. An important category is babies and young children, who are incapable of giving informed consent (as children mature their ability to consent increases - though considerable judgment is required to assess this capability) and for whom consent must be given by a parent or guardian, for example the brain cooling studies we discussed in 2009 http://speakingofresearch.com/2009/10/09/cool-heads-required/

Another category for which informed consent cannot often be obtained is for trials of new treatments in emergancy medicine, where the nature of the injury (for example stroke or head injury) itself renders the patient incapable of giving their consent.  In such cases where there is a short window of opportunity for starting the therapy consent can be waived (subject to IRB approval) if it is not possible to contact a proxy to give consent in time. Needless to say these trials do often involve invasive procedures and risk to the patient.

Interestingly an IOM panel recently published a report on the ethics of research on prisoners, a population whose restricted liberty raised profound ethical questions with regard to informed consent http://iom.edu/~/media/Files/Report%20Files/2006/Ethical-Considerations-for-Research-Involving-Prisoners/Prisoners.pdf

It does strike me that Franz De Waals views on what is acceptable in research involving chimpanzees is somewhat blinkered, overly focused on his own field.  He might consider &quot;cognitive testing, trained giving of (small) blood samples, behavioral observation, and voluntary neuroimaging.&quot; to be tha procedures that he &quot;would not mind doing on human volunteers&quot;, but he must acknowledge that there are thousands of clinical scientists who need to do far more invasive and risky procedures on human volunteers, and even in some situations on humans who cannot volunteer. While I fully agree that chimpanzees should be the animal model of last resort - as the IOM panel rcommended in its guidelines - Franz de Waal appears to suggest that Chimpanzees receive a greater degree of protection than some human subjects. He&#039;s also far too optimistic about the potential for voluntary neuroimaging in chimps, stating that it is &quot;likely to be developed in the near future&quot;.  This just isn&#039;t true, and for the next decade - at the very least - some degree of sedation and/or restraint will still be required in order to conduct neuroimaging studies in apes.

There&#039;s also the issue of the testing of vaccines for diseases such as Ebola virus which are devestating wild great ape populations. Such vaccines are increasingly considered necessary to ensure the survival of several great ape species in the wild, and will need to be evaluated for safety and immunogenicity in chimpanzees (having demonstrated the ability to block infection in other animal models) before being trialed in wild populations. Clearly a vloanke ban in all invasive research in chimpanzees would not be a good idea at this stage.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points David about research involving people who cannot give informed consent. An important category is babies and young children, who are incapable of giving informed consent (as children mature their ability to consent increases &#8211; though considerable judgment is required to assess this capability) and for whom consent must be given by a parent or guardian, for example the brain cooling studies we discussed in 2009 <a href="http://speakingofresearch.com/2009/10/09/cool-heads-required/" rel="nofollow">http://speakingofresearch.com/2009/10/09/cool-heads-required/</a></p>
<p>Another category for which informed consent cannot often be obtained is for trials of new treatments in emergancy medicine, where the nature of the injury (for example stroke or head injury) itself renders the patient incapable of giving their consent.  In such cases where there is a short window of opportunity for starting the therapy consent can be waived (subject to IRB approval) if it is not possible to contact a proxy to give consent in time. Needless to say these trials do often involve invasive procedures and risk to the patient.</p>
<p>Interestingly an IOM panel recently published a report on the ethics of research on prisoners, a population whose restricted liberty raised profound ethical questions with regard to informed consent <a href="http://iom.edu/~/media/Files/Report%20Files/2006/Ethical-Considerations-for-Research-Involving-Prisoners/Prisoners.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://iom.edu/~/media/Files/Report%20Files/2006/Ethical-Considerations-for-Research-Involving-Prisoners/Prisoners.pdf</a></p>
<p>It does strike me that Franz De Waals views on what is acceptable in research involving chimpanzees is somewhat blinkered, overly focused on his own field.  He might consider &#8220;cognitive testing, trained giving of (small) blood samples, behavioral observation, and voluntary neuroimaging.&#8221; to be tha procedures that he &#8220;would not mind doing on human volunteers&#8221;, but he must acknowledge that there are thousands of clinical scientists who need to do far more invasive and risky procedures on human volunteers, and even in some situations on humans who cannot volunteer. While I fully agree that chimpanzees should be the animal model of last resort &#8211; as the IOM panel rcommended in its guidelines &#8211; Franz de Waal appears to suggest that Chimpanzees receive a greater degree of protection than some human subjects. He&#8217;s also far too optimistic about the potential for voluntary neuroimaging in chimps, stating that it is &#8220;likely to be developed in the near future&#8221;.  This just isn&#8217;t true, and for the next decade &#8211; at the very least &#8211; some degree of sedation and/or restraint will still be required in order to conduct neuroimaging studies in apes.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also the issue of the testing of vaccines for diseases such as Ebola virus which are devestating wild great ape populations. Such vaccines are increasingly considered necessary to ensure the survival of several great ape species in the wild, and will need to be evaluated for safety and immunogenicity in chimpanzees (having demonstrated the ability to block infection in other animal models) before being trialed in wild populations. Clearly a vloanke ban in all invasive research in chimpanzees would not be a good idea at this stage.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Frans de Waal&#8217;s Ethical Arguments Need Clarification by David Jentsch</title>
		<link>http://speakingofresearch.com/2012/05/12/frans-de-waals-ethical-arguments-need-clarification/#comment-5069</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Jentsch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2012 13:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://speakingofresearch.com/?p=3632#comment-5069</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There also remains a good deal of misunderstanding regarding human vs. animal research, particularly around the issue of voluntary consent. Many say that this is the crucial distinction between animals and humans - namely, that humans agree to participate in research and animals do not.

If that distinction was such a bright line, one would not need IRBs (Institutional Review Boards). All you would need is a contract that could be signed by an individual to deliver his or her consent.

Nevertheless, we know that there are many ways consent may not be particularly voluntary and/or that the decision-making process happened in an uncorrupted manner.

First is the issue of compensation. Human subjects could well, as a function of their personal finances, accept involvement in an experiment that causes them deep distress due to the monetary reward.

Second, individuals may agree to participate in an experiment because they want to please their doctor who recommends it, or a family member.

And perhaps most importantly, people with cognitive or other mental problems may find it virtually impossible to make a reasoned decision about whether to involve themselves in research - that is the nature of their disease and is the reason scientists need to study them!

In all cases of human research, an IRB examines the proposed research with an eye for issues like this. It makes a decision ON BEHALF of the subject as to whether the research should be allowed to proceed, or not.

In ethical decision-making, we often use by-proxy review to assist the system. It is no different with animal research.

Institutional animal care and use committees serve nearly the identical role to the IRB. It questions, on behalf of the subjects and of science, whether the protocol is meritorious and is being conducted in manner consistent with our ethical principles.

In human and animal research alike, we rely upon individuals of good-will and expertise (both in and outside of the scientific community) to offer their insights into a process where voluntary consent is rarely clear and is never quite the bright line standard some lead us to believe.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There also remains a good deal of misunderstanding regarding human vs. animal research, particularly around the issue of voluntary consent. Many say that this is the crucial distinction between animals and humans &#8211; namely, that humans agree to participate in research and animals do not.</p>
<p>If that distinction was such a bright line, one would not need IRBs (Institutional Review Boards). All you would need is a contract that could be signed by an individual to deliver his or her consent.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, we know that there are many ways consent may not be particularly voluntary and/or that the decision-making process happened in an uncorrupted manner.</p>
<p>First is the issue of compensation. Human subjects could well, as a function of their personal finances, accept involvement in an experiment that causes them deep distress due to the monetary reward.</p>
<p>Second, individuals may agree to participate in an experiment because they want to please their doctor who recommends it, or a family member.</p>
<p>And perhaps most importantly, people with cognitive or other mental problems may find it virtually impossible to make a reasoned decision about whether to involve themselves in research &#8211; that is the nature of their disease and is the reason scientists need to study them!</p>
<p>In all cases of human research, an IRB examines the proposed research with an eye for issues like this. It makes a decision ON BEHALF of the subject as to whether the research should be allowed to proceed, or not.</p>
<p>In ethical decision-making, we often use by-proxy review to assist the system. It is no different with animal research.</p>
<p>Institutional animal care and use committees serve nearly the identical role to the IRB. It questions, on behalf of the subjects and of science, whether the protocol is meritorious and is being conducted in manner consistent with our ethical principles.</p>
<p>In human and animal research alike, we rely upon individuals of good-will and expertise (both in and outside of the scientific community) to offer their insights into a process where voluntary consent is rarely clear and is never quite the bright line standard some lead us to believe.</p>
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